KEGELS do nothing over 8 months; Pelvic Floor Exercises do NOTHING.

Couple of things here. For sure you need a trained PT to get you started with Kegels. One who incorporates biofeedback is even better, as they can measure your baseline pelvic floor strength & endurance, and then measure your progress as your pelvic floor becomes stronger. If your current urologist can't refer you to one in your area, you should contact another doctor.

And the doctor who did your TULIP procedure may have removed some of the tissue in your internal sphincter/bladder neck area that provides involuntary control of urination. I had a HoLEP procedure where my doctor removed tissue that has left me with permanently impaired. If this happened to you then you are likely to have some level of permanent incontinence. Kegels may ultimately help, as they have for me, but I'll never be 100% continent as I was before my HoLEP procedure.

Good luck!
 
Olwi,
Question for you. Can you hold you urine at all?
Reason I ask? I can tighten the muscle you described (perfectly by the way) between you anus and the base of your penis. In my opinion I can tighten it hard. But for me this gains me about maybe 2 minutes when I get the urge to go. I can "clamp down" as hard as I can and urine still comes out. Once it starts coming out I cannot stop.
I am not trying to discourage you, but what I am suggesting is maybe you are doing things correctly and it just isn't working for you.
I think of it were me I would be forming some questions as to what I should expect, and maybe give a description of what is happen, how it feels to you. This of course is assuming you actually get to talk to your DR.
 
Snow,
Answer to your "shy" question. Yes when erect I am clenching and releasing the same muscle that makes my penis "move up and down", that I am also using to try and keep from wetting my pants when flaccid. Weird the way that works huh? One use is trying to keep a mans pants dry and the same use pleasures his partner.
 
@olwi Ask for a Ph.D. PT. I’ve had one for my knees, my back, and my Kegels. They’re sooooooooo much better than regular PTs.

The only PT that actually really helped, rather than hurt, me, were the Kegels PT.
 
@MartineLevesque30 Lol, that really made me laugh - the part about the primary reason for female incontinence being a weak pelvic floor. That’s inaccurate. By far, the primary reason for female incontinence is because they shred their guts, vagina, and perineum to pop out children. That damage never completely heals. I’m so glad I never had kids!
 
@Tim Thanks for answering my question :)
Yes, it’s a funny combo! It works the same for women: if we want to “suck” a penis with our vagina to increase our partner’s pleasure (and our own), we do so by clenching the pelvic floor.
 
Tim said:
Olwi,
Question for you. Can you hold you urine at all?
Reason I ask? I can tighten the muscle you described (perfectly by the way) between you anus and the base of your penis. In my opinion I can tighten it hard. But for me this gains me about maybe 2 minutes when I get the urge to go. I can "clamp down" as hard as I can and urine still comes out. Once it starts coming out I cannot stop.
I am not trying to discourage you, but what I am suggesting is maybe you are doing things correctly and it just isn't working for you.
I think of it were me I would be forming some questions as to what I should expect, and maybe give a description of what is happen, how it feels to you. This of course is assuming you actually get to talk to your DR.

Yes, Tim. I can clamp down on those muscles and hold it, though the time is limited, similar to what you say, maybe 2 to 3 minutes. If I am in the middle of doing something, I stop and clamp down again, but this only works for another 2 minutes.
 
cmulwee said:
Couple of things here. For sure you need a trained PT to get you started with Kegels. One who incorporates biofeedback is even better, as they can measure your baseline pelvic floor strength & endurance, and then measure your progress as your pelvic floor becomes stronger. If your current urologist can't refer you to one in your area, you should contact another doctor.

And the doctor who did your TULIP procedure may have removed some of the tissue in your internal sphincter/bladder neck area that provides involuntary control of urination. I had a HoLEP procedure where my doctor removed tissue that has left me with permanently impaired. If this happened to you then you are likely to have some level of permanent incontinence. Kegels may ultimately help, as they have for me, but I'll never be 100% continent as I was before my HoLEP procedure.

Good luck!

@cmulwee

Thank you for your post, though it was quite upsetting, as you had the HoLEP, similar to the ThuLEP laser, ending up with damage to your bladder neck, which contains the internal sphincter muscles, which really provide the normal control you need, and if those nerves are damaged, there is nothing that can be done outside implanting surgically some hideous devices that have their own full host of problems, like having to go back in multiple times on a "sling implant" to get it to stay in the correct position, and it has metal as part of it, so you can never have an MRI again in your life.

I'm trying to collect any medical studies on the TuLEP (Thullium) laser that have found it can cause the same issue. So far, I've only found one article comparing the two lasers, but unfortunately, it did not mention Urinary Incontinence (UI) at all.

Here is that article, if I can learn how to get this "Link" choice to work, because it hasn't in the past.

clickable text
 
@Olwi, I was able to access the link! Thanks...and I will definitely look at the article. Honestly one thing that concerned me when I saw your original post was that something must have gone wrong with your procedure, as I understand that incontinence isn't usually a risk factor for BPH treatment. When I had my initial TURP for BPH in 2001 the only problem I ended up having long term was retrograde ejaculation, which my urologist said I would have. But absolutely no incontinence at that point in time.

In 2011 I had radiation treatment for prostate cancer, and 5 years later (early 2017) I had my second TURP using the HolEP laser to remove calcium stones that had developed within my prostate. During the cystoscopy prior to the second TURP my urologist said there was also some strange tissue on my bladder neck that he would remove, along with the stones. But he didn't tell me ahead of time that I would almost certainly experience permanent incontinence, which had I known I would not have done the second TURP. But live & learn.

And I am on the same page as you when considering some of the surgical options to address the incontinence. I know there are many members of our site that have had procedures and they have had good success, but my problem isn't that bad (1-2 Medium TENA pads a day), and I'm hoping that stem cell treatments are right around the corner!
 
@cmulwee

I'm shocked that you had a TURP for BPH. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe HoLEP was already in use in 2001. But that might have been only in Italy and China.

I don't understand how you had a TURP for BPH, and later developed prostate cancer, except that your prostate had regrown and was not sufficiently monitored and biopsied, or you wouldn't have progressed to the full cancer stage, and could have had a full cure. (Not meaning to rub salt in your wounds).

I had to jump thru hoops to find ONE doctor who did the TuLEP (he was doing the HoLEP when I first contacted the State hospital clinic he worked at), but during the 6-9 months of hoops, he had progressed to the TuLEP, being Italian & going to Italy for training & seminars regularly.

My BPH was discovered by biopsy, and followed for 15 years, using high-dose Tamulosin to exist w/ the urges to urinate small amounts of urine, which got worse as prostate grew and grew. This should have been addressed with Green Light when it was much smaller, but, no, because of the incompetence and ignorance of the hugest group of urologists in the Chicago area.

Due to such mediocre & eventually neglectful care of my urologist, who, 15+ years ago, named Top Urologist by Chicago Magazine. to join the rest of their political & BS titles. He seemed sufficiently competent when I first saw him, but after 5 years, I noticed a decline in his energy & mental acuity.
He REFUSED to do more than one biopsy when I told him my problem was getting worse, answering "Your BPH hasn't changed enough to warrant it, so forget it, or find another doctor." Imagine the pomposity of this doctor in decline, though maybe 50 years old.

I did tons of research, and found papers on the HoLEP laser for large prostates. My Medicare Advantage plan required me to go see another in-network urologist who just happened to have gone through partial training in TuLEP (under the Dr. who did my surgery!), but said it was a difficult procedure that he would not ever do after his assisted procedures under my eventual surgeon. He explained he had no intentions of going through the training with my Dr. because of the time & number of surgeries he'd have to do to become competent.


I needed him to evaluate my prostate, & most importantly, write a letter stating why I needed that procedure specifically, and provide a recent 12 pt. prostate biopsy, which had not been done for 5 years prior, when it was 90 gm. He discovers it grew to 160 gm...!!!!! HUGE!

My surgeon might be very competent, but he doesn't conduct visits acceptably. They consist of him talking with you; no examination whatsoever, and then keep doing your Kegels. That was what I was told two weeks after surgery when the Kegels were not improving my leakage. Then, after he offers he his email, encouraging me to write at any time, & he would answer. But, other than ONE time, he never answered any other of perhaps 8 emails. When I confronted him, "Why have you not answered all but one email from me 7 months ago?", he answers, "Because I wanted to see you in person." A pathetic excuse, that left me suffering for 7 months before I saw him only the 2nd time since surgery, and the rest is detailed at the beginning of this (my) topic. He insists that his technique never touches the bladder neck - that is where he leaves some tissue. And that in doing thousands of these, he has had no incontinence result (sound like a crock).

All I can do at this point, is try to do these seemingly worthless Pelvic Floor exercises, which give no sensation of even working the pelvic floor. If no improvements, then I'll have to carefully pick a physical therapist who specifically works on men's incontinence after, as the Dr. described it to me, where the bladder was used to having a huge ball just about filling it totally, there is now a large void, and my bladder doesn't know how to handle it. But, the Kegels should have taken care of this. Others here with far worse problems, having radical prostectomies, there are a number that have little or no incontinence, though I know there are many who suffer from much incontinence.

We are all a bunch of poor souls, who resulted in our conditions because of the pagthetic state of urology that existed for decades in this country, and still doesn't bother to up their training, abilities, and knowledge to treat this disease. Which, if they did, men who faithfully go to urologists would have enlarged prostates handled and followed for possible further disease.

Here is a link to a clinical study, entitled "Risk Factors for Transient Urinary Incontinence after Holmium Laser Enucleation of the Prostate

clickable text
 
I had green light for BPHbut that doesnt guarantee that you wont get cancer....at all. They dont remove all the tissue and thats why there is a surgery called " radical prostatectomy ". So dont feel bad you had the turp and got cancer later for even the laser will leave tissue. I know, I had it twice and just had a radical prostatectomy for cancer 5 years after the 2nd laser.
Never heard of a single site biopsy, must be malpractice for the 12 punch biopsy is standard of care. So easy to miss areas even using U/S.
I have read that some laser and turps can damage one or both of the bladder sphincters then when the radical is done it's just to much for them to compensate.
I had some decent months where I progresed post radical but got several infections that antibiotics cleared up. But I was still having pain and a cystscope/bladder wash showed no bladder cancer but he found lesions compatible with infections that just dont culture positive. Two weeks of antibiotics helped and eventually i went from urinating hourly and getting up 6 times a night to getting up just once. I also took a tylenol or tylenol/advil low dose to help relieve pain during sleep and it allowed the bladder to learn to hold more.
Turp is still used by a lot of docs but I think its because they dont want to learn more but they still have 2nd home and boat payments! A very low esteem group of specialists.
I tried kegels but my surgeon said the wouldnt help with leakage, but if i feel and urge the kegels can buy me a couple of minutes. Im 7 months out and see doc in a few days. May ask for pelvuc floor PT
 
@olwi

A 160gm prostate is definitely huge. When I was starting my prostate cancer treatment my prostate was approximately 100gm. I had to take hormone medication for several months to shrink my prostate, as the radiation treatment I was planning to have (high dose-rate brachytherapy) is more effective on a smaller prostate.

I have a older friend who is single, and I help him manage his healthcare. He started having urine retention problem, and has had to have an emergency catheter. We went to his urologist who said that his prostate was so large, that if he had any treatment for BPH (standard TURP; laser treatment; UroLift; whatever) that the removal of all that tissue would cause his bladder to collapse, and that he would end up incontinent. I'm wondering if your incontinence might be related to a similar situation??

And @Doug

I don't think there is any connection to having BPH and prostate cancer. I guess you could argue that any tissue that is removed during a BPH treatment is tissue that won't become cancerous later (as it is no longer present), but whatever tissue is left can definitely become cancerous, as was my situation
 
cmulwee said:
@olwi

A 160gm prostate is definitely huge. When I was starting my prostate cancer treatment my prostate was approximately 100gm. I had to take hormone medication for several months to shrink my prostate, as the radiation treatment I was planning to have (high dose-rate brachytherapy) is more effective on a smaller prostate.

I have a older friend who is single, and I help him manage his healthcare. He started having urine retention problem, and has had to have an emergency catheter. We went to his urologist who said that his prostate was so large, that if he had any treatment for BPH (standard TURP; laser treatment; UroLift; whatever) that the removal of all that tissue would cause his bladder to collapse, and that he would end up incontinent. I'm wondering if your incontinence might be related to a similar situation??

And @Doug

I don't think there is any connection to having BPH and prostate cancer. I guess you could argue that any tissue that is removed during a BPH treatment is tissue that won't become cancerous later (as it is no longer present), but whatever tissue is left can definitely become cancerous, as was my situation

@cmulwee

Yes, 160 gms. And it was measured 100 gms. by "Dr. Incompetence" who discovered it was that size (but I believe by "guessing", as that was during his cystoscopy he insisted on, where he failed to order the biopsy machine which has the ultrasound w/the needles, and he actually took manual stabs into my prostate, then put the samples in TWO containers, marked "Left & Right".

I would consider that malpractice, and that was when I put in a complaint to Humana Medicare Advantage about him, which resulted in him "dismissing he as a patient", as if I'd ever go back to this Neanderthal.

If I had gone to another urologist soon after that, I MIGHT have gotten one who knew of the HoLEP, and been referred to the same surgeon, out-of-network, that did my ThuLEP. However, because of the incompetence and lack of knowledge of these urology idiots, I probably would have been told I'd have to go through a TURP, because they lack any knowledge of important medical papers, such as I researched and obtained myself, they would have had me go through a TURP.

And, in agreement with you, @Doug, I was told you have BPH surgery, that the tissue left by a competent surgeon is tissue that is the most unlikely tissue to have cancer in it, being some around the inside of the prostate capsule, and some at the bladder neck area.
 
@owli. I dont know about the areas more prone tp cancer, but I can tell you 7 of the 12 biopsies had a gleason 6 or 7, so it was pretty scattered
 
@Doug

Doug said:
I had green light for BPHbut that doesnt guarantee that you wont get cancer....at all. They dont remove all the tissue and thats why there is a surgery called " radical prostatectomy ". So dont feel bad you had the turp and got cancer later for even the laser will leave tissue. I know, I had it twice and just had a radical prostatectomy for cancer 5 years after the 2nd laser.
Never heard of a single site biopsy, must be malpractice for the 12 punch biopsy is standard of care. So easy to miss areas even using U/S.
I have read that some laser and turps can damage one or both of the bladder sphincters then when the radical is done it's just to much for them to compensate.
I had some decent months where I progresed post radical but got several infections that antibiotics cleared up. But I was still having pain and a cystscope/bladder wash showed no bladder cancer but he found lesions compatible with infections that just dont culture positive. Two weeks of antibiotics helped and eventually i went from urinating hourly and getting up 6 times a night to getting up just once. I also took a tylenol or tylenol/advil low dose to help relieve pain during sleep and it allowed the bladder to learn to hold more.
Turp is still used by a lot of docs but I think its because they dont want to learn more but they still have 2nd home and boat payments! A very low esteem group of specialists.
I tried kegels but my surgeon said the wouldnt help with leakage, but if i feel and urge the kegels can buy me a couple of minutes. Im 7 months out and see doc in a few days. May ask for pelvuc floor PT

Doug,

I think you were responding to @cmulvee, though not sure, as you didn't start by using the @ symbol followed by the name.

Can you clarify some things? From what I read, it sounds like you did not have cancer when you had your Green Light. The purpose of even that earliest of lasers was to burn out literally almost all of the prostate. But either I'm wrong, or your had some winner of a surgeon, if it grew again and you had a 2nd Green. But you then said you had a radical because 5 years later, and then after it (?) they found multiple lesions. I'm assuming these were cancerous lesions. You don't indicate if these lesions were in prostate tissue, or directly on the bladder. They have to grow onto something, either prostate tissue or the bladder wall. However, I'm ignorant of this sort of manifestation, so perhaps you can fill me in.

I am so sorry that you have gone all you've gone through to end up with this result. It just seems something was not done, or you were not followed at frequent enough intervals to catch any growths and get rid of them.
 
Hello,

I was diagnosed with Neurogenic Bladder and saw 4 Urologists at 3 top NYC hospitals followed by a Naturopath specializing in Urology and after 9 months got no improvement other than with meds and catheters. I randomly stumbled upon someone with Hypertonic/Pelvic Floor muscle weakness and through that found a NYC physical therapist certified in pelvic floor and only sees men as patients.

Admins, feel free to delete if not allowed. Although we plan to very much relay our results and knowledge back to this community, often. Given lack of resources/experts for men, I felt it was imperative to start a community.

Any men, wanting to learn more about Hypertonic pelvic floor muscles can go here. You will need to get tested by a physical therapist in order to stay in the group. Why Pelvic Floor / Hypertonic education? Because many people are misdiagnosed with Neurogenic Bladder when in fact that is the symptom and the pelvic muscles are weak/damaged/tight causing the bladder not to function properly. Thank you.
 
You must log in or register to post here.
Back
Top