My MRI, diagnosis, and the confusion it provides.

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Hi everyone. So I've had urinary incontinent for over 5 years following a spine injury while on active duty when I was 25ish. It started mild and got severe over the course of a year or so. There's something that always bothered me and maybe someone could provide some insight or share a relevant story. I had an MRI many years ago. On the L5-S1 level, it found that I have: minimal spondylolisthesis, marked (significant) stenosis and compression at the L5, and a mild disc but at the L5. At the L3-4 level, a mild disc bulge.

The doc said the MRI didn't clearly explain my symptoms, but they labeled it as a neurogenic bladder. I guess because nothing else made since. Apparently, marked compression and stenosis at the L5 can cause incontinence, but it's rare for it to cause severe incontinence if the S2-S5 and sacral nerves are normal, which mine are. I'm also otherwise physically healthy. Has anyone else with severe incontinence had an MRI which showed a sacral nerve as healthy. This has always ate at me because I feel like advances in medicine could maybe fix it one day, but without a definitive cause, how can that even be possible. I take meds and do PTNS which helps, but I want more lol. I want it gone.
 
Empowered25
Sorry to hear of your symptoms. My incontinence issues all stem from a radical prostatectomy but I feel for you. Have you tried getting a second or even third opinion? I apologize if I am suggesting the obvious but it seems to me that with your significant spinal issues there should be specialists that could hopefully get you some answers. I really feel for you and wish you well.
Boomer
 
Thanks for the reply Boomer. I'm also sorry to hear about your incontinence issue too. I would like to, but I doubt the VA would cover it.
 
Your MRI results and symptoms don’t make sense. It’s been a long time but since it has progressed I think a fresh start and second opinion is in order. Get all your imaging and test results for a second opinion.
 
Empowered25
I would still seek out the other opinions. It would not be expensive to get them. Then if you get options for treatment you can make decisions but you are too young to not seek effective treatment. I live near the Philadelphia area and I know there’s some great spinal folks in the area
Boomer
 
@JoeAk Posted a chart like this a wile ago. L3-L5 issues are a big deal for incontinence. I brought it up to my PCP as I have issue there and he is waiting for me to see a doctor that specializes in spinal issues.

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I had a mri of my back before and I had some missed up back but should cause my incontinence is all the really told me
 
I have spinal stenosis from L1-S1 and so severely shredded my discs while falling down a cliff while snowboarding that I also permanently severed most of the nerves between my brain and bladder. I no longer have any disc material whatsoever remaining in my lumbar nor my cervical spine. My lumbar and cervical vertebrae are bone-on-bone. Those tiny bladder nerves cannot be seen on an MRI. I’ve had about 15 MRIs of my back and they never reveal those tiny nerves, just major things like the spinal cord. You have to get complex neurology tests to look for those nerves and even then it’s unlikely they can ever find them. My diagnosis is the same as yours: neurogenic bladder. My L1-S1 vertebrae are so screwed up I now have a scoliosis curve of 17° to the left from L1 through S1. I’m only 48 yet I’ve lost 2.5” of height in just the past four years, like a 90-year-old woman would lose over the course of her entire life. Anyway, yes, you are likely also incontinent from neurogenic bladder. There are at least six of us on this forum who also have neurogenic bladder whether from a spinal injury or from MS.

Botox injections work phenomenally well - actually, the best - for those of us with neurogenic bladder. I highly suggest you research them. They fix 90-95% of my daytime problems so I no longer have to wear diapers during the day and they fix about 80% of both the frequency and severity of my bedtime leaks and 60-70% of my Nocturia (nighttime waking up with urgent frequency to pee). I receive 200 units of Botox every four months. They start you at 100 units. The max you can receive is 400 units. The pain is initially shocking but you get used to it. If you decide to go through with it, ask your doctor for a Percocet and a volume to help you get through it. You’ll have to have a driver, but you will not feel the pain anywhere near as intensely. I think even if you feel the pain 100%, it’s still completely worth it. I’ve been getting the injections for at least five years now. They’re sooooooooo amazing!

I also recommend reading up on Cauda Equina Syndrome because you likely have something similar to that if not the full-fledged thing. It’s an old term for when people hurt their backs by getting kicked off a horse.
 
Also research dermatomes and myotomes charts online. They show which parts of your spine control every part of your entire body. You’ll see that right where you’re injured, the bladder is affected by those nerves.

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@snow

Question about this chart??

I had an MRI Done that I have talked about before but looking at the records the scan only covered L1-S1

Looking at this chart and others online tells me that there is a lot they can find out if there is damage to L3-S5

I know from physical therapy that my tailbone is off but that area was never scanned.

Did any MRI you had give you a better diagnosis? Did it help your doctors decided what you needed?

I ask because after September I have to find some answers.

Thanks
 
Your diagnosis sounds right to me. I have the same MRI diagnosis you have when it comes to nerves that can be seen on an MRI.

I’ve been incontinent for nine years. During that time I’ve seen seven spine doctors, five interventional radiologists, four urologists, and eight orthopedic surgeons for knee/hip/and pelvis misalignment diagnoses. THEY HAVE ALL TOLD ME I HAVE NEUROGENIC BLADDER and Cauda Equina Syndrome, even though my Cauda Equina nerve pack appears intact on my lumbar/ MRIs. I have had four MRIs of my hips and pelvis with hip injections; I’ve had 15 lumbar/sacral spine MRIs and seven lumbar spine injections; and I’ve had endless knee X-rays, MRIs, 47 knee injections, and four knee surgeries. My pelvis is tilted backward by 18° because of how badly my spine is messed up and because I need hip and knee replacements. My spinal tilt and lumbar tilt/scoliosis have made me knock-kneed. There is no limit to the way lumbar spine damage can ruin your life. You can try what I do which is to try to look on the bright side that you’re lucky you didn’t end up with fecal incontinence, also. Several people on this website are also dealing with that!

As for the lumbar pain, it will never go away either, not even with surgery - surgery will only make it worse in all likelihood, and just lead to another surgery then another and another u til you e got a metal rod down your spine. I highly recommend not going that route. No surgery can ever make you continent again. TENS only works for pain while you’re wearing the unit. I’ve found heating pads to be more effective than a TENS unit. I keep one in my bed and on my work chair at all times. I remove the cover of the heating pad so I can make it even hotter. If I travel far by vehicle then I keep a heating pad on my car seat using a power adapter to plug it into the cigarette lighter. I’ve found taking four Aleve liquigels (easier on your stomach than tablets) every 12 hours helps the most with chronic back pain. If that doesn’t cut it, then I add Tylenol for Osteoarthritis. If I’m still in agony after that, if it’s over a 7/10 on the pain scale, I’ll take a Percocet or two.

If you find that you need a real pain doctor, I suggest that you find a combo pain/spine doctor because they really understand more about what you’re going through than a general/all-around pain doctor. There are many non-opioid medications to try before the heavy duty stuff so don’t be scared to go to a pain doctor. I thought there were only opioids so I avoided a pain doctor for the first 12 years of my agony (I had multiple severe snowboarding injuries before I fell down the cliff), even though all my doctors kept telling me to see a proper pain physician. I wish I had seen one much sooner so I hadn’t missed out on over a decade of my life.

One more thing about chronic physical pain: it’s very similar to grief. You never get over it and it never goes away. But eventually you do get used to *the idea* of it and you become accustomed to living with it always in your life. It becomes . . . less shocking. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt like hell - it always does - it’s just that you kind of get used to living with that hell.

It’s the same with incontinence, too. When I first became incontinent, I entered the déposer, darkest depression of my life because I became disabled in multiple ways thanks to injuries sustained during that fall, including a Traumatic Brain Injury from the concussion I got when my head hit rocks. Concussions can alter the psychology of the brain forever for the worse. I had also just split up with husband two weeks before the fall. But the incontinence was the most humiliating part of the entire experience. I laid in bed for about 2.75 years and barely went anywhere. I didn’t work. I let my friendships and family relationships suffer. I was 39 then, which is young to become incontinent. It doesn’t happen to most people until they’re in their 70s and their dating lives are resolved.

Eventually I found this website and forum and realized I wasn’t alone in being incontinent. I finally accepted that I needed to wear diapers and use bedpads. I went from being suicidal to starting to see a path forward into a future thanks to this community. Around that same time I learned about Botox injections and brought them up to my urologist. My life improved dramatically once I started with Botox. Without it, I have to pee every 5 to 60 minutes all throughout the night (8 to 90 times per night), no matter how much I restrict my fluid intake. Thanks to Botox, now I only wake up between three and five times per night. If I wet my diaper, I don’t wet enough that my entire bed gets soaking wet.

As a man you also have other treatment options available to you that don’t exist for women, like condom catheters with leg bags, or an artificial urinary sphincter (AUS). The men will have to tell you about those things. They’ve been posted about tons of times so you can find the previous posts by using the search (magnifying glass) option at the top of the screen. Make sure you go to “advanced options,“ then search the timeframe for the entire history of the forum so you’re not only seeing the most 30 days of posts. An Interstim implant is another option to research but those devices don’t work particularly well with for those of us who have Neurogenic Bladder. From what I’ve read here over the years, a few people find Interstim devices to be miracles, but most people don’t like them nor get a good result from them.
 
@ThatFLGuy If your MRI covered L1 through S1, then it covered all of your lumbar discs and vertebrae. I’ve been told that L3 through L5 are the primary discs and vertebrae that affect bladder function. You might want to get a new MRI that also includes S1 through S5 (the sacral/tailbone area of your spine). You might also request an MRI of your pelvis Because of your pelvis is tilted, which can also happen from the kind of injury you had, then that can cause bladder and bowel problems also.

It has always sounded to me that from your bike injury a long time ago that it might have caused some of both your bladder and your fecal problems.
 
@snow

The reason I bring up S1-S5 is that when I had the Sacral nural modulator trial, I was one of the X people that it doesn't work for.

The rep for the modulator was curious that I did not have a full MRI before doing the trial. Also my MRI was not review by a spinal doctor but a normal ER doctor is all.
 
Oh yeah, screw that; get a new one from a real spine doctor! ER doctors are always in a big hurry and only look at preliminary results from a radiologist. I used to type radiology reports and hang x-rays for radiologist for four years. It takes at least 3 to 4 days to get a proper radiology diagnosis so ER doctors are not getting a proper radiology diagnosis, ever. You should also, if you don’t get a new MRI, get those old MRI films pulled and take them with you to your urologist. My spine changes a lot every two years (gets a lot worse) so I would get a new MRI if your MRI is older than two years. Your local PCP should be able to order one for you before you go to the urologist.
 
@snow

The test was ordered by a doctor within GI back in 2021. The test was read a few days later by an MD and doesn't work for the hospital anymore.

The GI doctor who called me about the findings (I was when COVID was still bad)

My Physical therapist felt like I needed more tests after she saw the results but could not get any of my doctors to take it on.
 
@ThatFLGuy You have the worst luck with doctors! Sounds like you probably need a couple of new MRIs, one for your spine and one for your pelvis
 
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